Saturday, July 04, 2009

Julio Cesar Chavez Sr. vs Manny Pacquiao: who would win?

By Randy De La O

I'll pick Chavez at any weight. No doubt Chavez had trouble with Meldrick Taylor's hand speed. If you judge a fighter on the quantity of his punches you're likely to go with a fighter like Taylor, if you go with Quality of the punch than Chavez and fighters like him are your guys. The proof as they say, is in the pudding, Taylor was never the same after the Chavez fight, that wouldn't have changed even if Richard Steele had let the fight continue. The truth is, while Taylor was busy scoring points, Chavez was busy kicking his butt. Steele did right stopping that fight. Throughout the fight, whether you agree that the fight should have been stopped or not, Chavez kept his cool, never got discouraged and never wavered from his goal, which was to hurt and stop Taylor.

Pacquiao on the other hand was beaten by Erik Morelas in the first of their three fights, and Morales was already winding down his great career, Pacquiao also recieved a draw and a split decision against Juan Manuel Marquez, and you can easily make a case that Marquez won both fights, but regardless, they were close. Pacquiao has been ducking Marquez ever since. There has to be a reason.

Beating Oscar De La Hoya at this point in De La Hoya's career doesn't really amount to much, neither does beating Hatton, a fine fighter to be sure but with limitations.

Chavez had a cast Iron chin and skull and did not get stopped until late in his career, suffering TKO's from both Oscar De la Hoya , twice, one on cuts, with Chavez unable to continue and the other in the second fight with Chavez unable to answer the bell for the ninth round. Pacquiao was KO'ed twice; in his 12th fight with Rustico Torrecampo, and in his 28th fight against against Medgoen Singsurat. He can be stopped.

I'm making this comparison not to degrade Pacquiao but because the question was asked, who would win between the two. These are my reasons but as in any fight, circumstances change and there are always the intangibles, still given what I know I'll pick Chavez by a late round KO.


9 comments:

ScottG said...

Good Write-up Randy, Completely biased, but good. First of all, Don't even look an Chaves's first 50 fight's in Mexico against a bunch of What Haugen called "Tijauana cab drivers". He even had a loss erased from a DQ to a KO win because his trainer was on the commission that made that call. Julio Cesar Chaves Sr, Is and was one of the greatest boxers of all time,easy top 10 and higher if the ranking person is of Mexican descent. He fought the best in his time and he beat the best. Like most great champions he fought too long and added a couple unnecessary losses to his record. Now let's talk about Manny Pacquiao, He is the current pound for pound dominant force in boxing. You can minimize his drubbing of Oscar De La Hoya if you wish but Oscar was the bigger, more experienced fighter and Manny beat him like Chavez beat Haugen or Camacho...he beat him up. Two of Manny's 3 losses were early in his career in the Philipines over 10 years ago before he had a good trainer and his loss to Morales was on points using the non punchers "pillow Gloves" that Morales handlers insisted on. 113-115 on all 3 cards. He later fought him with his Reyes punchers gloves and destroyed him. He also is and will fight all comers and has to move up in weight to find worthy opponents. When should a comparison be made to Chavez??? Maybe in a few years when Manny is winding down his career. To compare them now is comparing apples to oranges.

Randyman said...

Thank you. yes, it's true, I can be the most biased guy in the world when it comes to boxing, no bones about it. You've certainly known me long enough to know that. However, that doesn't change the truth.

I don't think it's far fetched, untrue or unfair to say that Manny Pacquiao did not face the best of Oscar De La Hoya. I'm not making excuses for Oscar either (to his credit niether is he). It is what it is, when you step into the ring the onus is your's alone. De La Hoya made the decision to fight Pacquiao at that stage in his career and he lost. It was a dramatic win for Manny no doubt but in the grand scheme of things it really was not so big a deal. Oscar was a spent fighter. Still it was an attractive win for the resume.

I don't think it's unfair to say that Manny caught both Marco Antonio Barrera and Erik Morales at the tail end of their careers. They took a lot out of each other with their own trilogy. That can't be denied. As far as the gloves go, they might not have been the gloves that Manny wanted but Morales is not the first fighter to get his way in a fight. Both Sugar Rays were pretty adept at tat. Still they are boxing gloves not sparring gloves. The fact that Pacquiao won the second fight proves nothing except that he won the second fight (as well as the third).

On Marquez: The difference between Pacqiuao and Marquez (if there is a difference) is razor thin. Pacquiao met his match with Marquez. Marquez though one hell of a fighter is no Chavez, at least not in my opinion. Going on those assumption I would give the edge to Chavez.

I used the Taylor fight to show that cavez can and has over come hand spoeed. I know fool well that some fans disagree with Steele's stoppage of Taylor. There's nothing I can do for them.

As for Manny's being a better trained fighter since his two knockouts, I agree with you 100% with the caveat that you can train and improve everything about a fighter but his chin. It's not bias or an untrue statement to say Pacquiao has been stopped or that he is not unbeatable. Look at the knockouts. They were not TKO's, they were knockouts.

I agree and said so myself (elsewhere) that you cannot really compare two fighters from two different generations until both men have retired. But the question was asked of me so I answered. Still I think I stayed within the correct time frame whe I made the comparison.

I think Manny is one of the best fighters of his generation. I take nothing away from him. He has been amazing, but I believe that Chavez would win if they met. That's not to say that my opinion won't change in time depending on what Pacquiao does with the rest of his career, and that includes giving Marquez a much deserved rematch.

Randyman said...

Excuse the bad spelling on the above post. I'm at work right now and I'm rushing. (see there's an excuse for everything0

Randyman said...

On Haugen and cab drivers: When did Haugen become the authority on Mexican cab drivers. An off the cuff remark by Haugen does not equate to fact.

What is fact is that for the past half century Mexico has continued to produce some of the finest boxers in the world with more than their fair share of champions. The same with Puerto Rico and many other Latin American counties. If Chavez had to work his way through fifty "Mexican cab drivers" then that is to his credit.

brian said...

...just a couple of points...I think Haugen said after the fight,something like,' they must've been some pretty tough cab drivers...also,what's with these guys negotiating their best weights to fight Pacquiao?First Oscar...now I read that Cotto is talking about goin' below'47 and Shane Mosley's talking about cutting to 143 for the fight..?

Mike said...

Pacquiao has been stopped twice with body shots. Chavez would eventually hurt Pacquiao with his punches in the later rounds and stop Manny with a body shot!

Anonymous said...

I agree with your prediction. While I also think that Manny would win perhaps the first 4 rounds, Chavez would adapt, and take it from there. In comparing Chavez to Manny, we see that Manny is the overall better athlete - he is phenomenal. In Chavez, we have intelligence. Remember, Chavez would not really train and take tune up fights and still look like an alien in the ring. When Manny first steps in the ring for his training camp and spars, he gets tagged a lot. If you watch the Chavez vs. Ramirez fight, then you see that Chavez had very good boxing skills and counter-punching skills, qualities that are often overlooked. He also has better footwork and grounding than Manny. Now, Ramirez is no Manny, but I absolutely believe that Chavez could outbox Manny, and if he ever hurt him, he could apply the necessary pressure that Marquez can never apply.

Anonymous said...

If they fought at 130 or 135 I go with Chavez. When Chavez was young and fought as a lightweight he was invincible. Manny pacqiaou would in my opinion be hammered by the powerful counter punches of Chavez the only waybthe PAC man could beat chavez at 130 would be to fight a 100 percent defensive fight. But PAC would not and could not keep away from the young Chavez unless the ring was huge. Chavez had a granite chin and at 130 he had the punching power of a powerful welterweight. Chavez had great defensive skills and was an incredible counter puncher. PAC man had trouble with Juan Marquez, and as great as Marquez is he does not have the skills and power of Julio. Hector com macho may have been even faster than PAC man and yet com macho could not hurt Julio PAC man could beat the older, heavier, slower chavez. But in my opinion at 130 to 135 and young Chavez was the greatest lightweight that ever stepped into the ring . The chin and awesome power coupled with his great defensive skill made Chavez the best light weight ever. De lahoya did not dare to fight Chavez at 135 because he knew Chavez would have ended his career. Oscar waited til Cesar was old and heavier.

Anonymous said...

they fought already in mexico check it out in youtube